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And the Point Is???
January 14, 2013
9:42 pm
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I'm sure I'll get some flaming messages from the BSs who are posting here, and reading now.

I found this site because I was ~trying~ to understand what people who entered into affairs felt. I still read for that reason. I am here as a WS, and I still don't understand my OWN motivation, why I feel the need to continue instead of point-blank asking for a D.

Believe me, a few years back, as a 'happily married and secure' W, I would have been aghast at the thought of what I'm actually doing today. It isn't me. (Or so I thought).

I 'get' having multiple positions on As. I also 'get' that the owner/moderator of this forum, Doccool, is against A's.

What I don't understand, is, since most of us here have been in an A, are IN an A, or just getting out of an A, what is the point of hammering home how WRONG it is for us to do it??
What is the point to drive deeper into our feelings of shame, or worthlessness, or regret?

Does it come down to the human need to 'convert'? Does it come down to the human need to shame? or blame? Or find a scapegoat??
Isn't it obvious to pretty much anyone with a brain that we do all these things to ourselves, anyway??
Even those of us who find 'temporary' happiness, who even (like CA) manage to turn it around into a hopefully legitimate relationship, or those who really just have an alternative life? Why all the vitriol??

Yes, I'm asking.

January 14, 2013
9:59 pm
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Some people enjoy knocking down sandcastles. Some have an "it's not enough that I succeed, others must fail" mentality, some deal with their own sins by bringing fire and brimstone down on others, from the pulpit of having seen the light, and some are out for revenge. Everybody pretends they're rational or logical. Everything said on a forum is jam-packed with emotionally driven agendas. Even my little scree right here…

January 14, 2013
10:23 pm

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I think it's an interesting question.

I've been asking myself that lately as well. What's the point in coming here? I am essentially on the other side now, what is the point? For me (and this may be offensive as well) it helps give me strength as I work through teh final stages of establishing myself as "single"/divorced, learn to parent independently, be self sufficient, and all the other things that challenge someone coming for a long term relationship. Moving out of my marriage, despite how much I wanted out, still presents challenges, and it helps me to be reminded of what I left behind. That is what I personally gain in terms of helping me.

In terms of affair condemnation. I wouldn't assume everyone beats themselves up, or challenges their thinking, or questions their behavior. In fact, I wouldn't assume there is much of anything that everyone does. We have people that feel guilty or don't, some think it helps their marriages – others don't, some would do it again – some never would. I think we have the full gamete covered. I know my perspective on affairs has evolved dramatically from the onset to where I am now.

To me the point is a melting pot. The point is to take a bunch of disparate views, stick them into a virtual conference room, and talk about something. It is that diversity of perspective, and also tones (even ones we don't like) that offer the full breadth of viewpoints – and passion on those viewpoints – that may shift someone to a different place. I don't think anyone needs to be personal, or disrespectful – but people should be able to generically profess their advocacy for affairs as much as someone should be able to express their utter disdain for them.

Me personally, I don't know anyone here individually. I have no horse in this race so to speak. I do however know that many of my most spirited debates occur with someone who is advocating or explaining something exactly the way I once would have. It is difficult for me to watch people encounter my same struggles and not offer my opinion, or what I learned, or what I experienced. I also know, when I was a huge advocate on this very board for my affair, had it 100% rationalized, believed it helped everyone – it was the people that challenged me that added the most value. I can't recall a single supportive word to this day, but I recall distinctly that when someone enraged me most, it was because they hit a nerve, something I wasn't settled on, something that I later reflected on and sorted out. I know others just want a sounding board and support – but for me it was the ones that challenged my thinking that provided the most value to me.

I find it truly fascinating, affairs. The cycle of it all – it is so predictable and the exceptions are so few. The terms & phases like fog, gaslighting, lust, the initial euphoria, the intoxicating hormones, the sense of being trapped, the rationalizations, the sense of fulfillment – all of the competing emotions – the challenges – the rewards, it is almost always the same. We are so unique – yet it's all the same.

Changed said it so well the other day – about affairs:

"Changed" wrote:
What to call this?
The sad state of affairs.
Both people want more
Neither can accept less
Neither open to change

To what end?
There's no peace in any of the 3.
C.

Is that insulting to people who love affairs????

I am wandering – hopefully I hit on some of the points of this thread. I think at the end of the day doccool is the party host here. He establishes the guidelines for the forum and we moderate to operate within them. It's an open party – the entrance and the exit. Take it of leave it I guess. It helped me in so many ways I can't articulate it.

"Most people would rather be certain they're miserable, than risk being happy." -Robert Anthony “It does not take much strength to do things, but it requires a great deal of strength to decide what to do.” ― Elbert Hubbard "The path of least resistance is the path of the loser." - HG Wells
January 14, 2013
10:34 pm
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I sometimes wonder if it's an elaborate set up to catch cheaters or give BSs proof of what the WSs are doing. When you think about it, being here is just one more way for a WS to get busted, especially since it is so easy to read everything a person has ever posted. I don't know any other forum that makes it so easy to delve into someone's history, with a zero-deletions policy to boot. Not to mention that someone who is anti-A has our IP addresses.

But even being the suspicious kitten I am, I come here anyway. Part of me wants to get caught just so I can end this sham of a marriage once and for all. For a variety of reasons, I just have not been able to do it on my own.

January 14, 2013
10:51 pm
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Bored,
I think it's as another poster said: we see what we want to see when we visit this site. You see condemnation, blame and shame. I see support, comfort and the exchange of ideas and information. You see those who are no longer in the lifestyle telling others it's wrong, I see people with experiences who worked out a solution that's right for them; sharing how they came to that solution.

We've had some posts recently that have got us all thinking and perhaps challenging our choices. Posts that make us understand better the consequences of our actions. I think that's what keeps us changing and evolving, hopefully evolving to a happier place with more knowledge no matter how we choose to procede.

Honestly, don't know if that answers your question but that's what came to mind.
C.

If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude.
January 14, 2013
10:54 pm
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Wow. Thanks, so far, CA, and Daphne.

I agree with both of you, believe it or not.

CA _
"To me the point is a melting pot. The point is to take a bunch of disparate views, stick them into a virtual conference room, and talk about something. It is that diversity of perspective, and also tones (even ones we don't like) that offer the full breadth of viewpoints – and passion on those viewpoints – that may shift someone to a different place."
What you say here, is pretty much why I continue to read (and share).
Diversity. But I feel that it does that pendulum swing, from 'full acceptance' to 'rigid' sometimes in a rather rapid succession. Still, being as this is 'billed' as a place for people in affairs ……. and even though YOU don't feel some who post here feel any sort of regret/remorse for what they are doing, if they live in the 'Western World', I can assure you, societal mores and public opinion in general has shamed them into a box.

Daphne ~ I feel you, for saying, "part of me wants to get caught" …….
I'm taking off from one state to visit San Francisco, CA for a whirlwind 24 hour overnight with my MM. Do you think I 'want' to get caught? I would say, probably. But of course, no. :? I am so totally guilty of being a 'fence-sitter' -- knowing I should leave my M, but not ready or willing to, just yet.

(((hugs to all)))

January 14, 2013
10:55 pm
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Changed ~

honestly, I'm seeing all of it.

It has made me think, deeply. Just not enough to change my choices, just yet.

January 15, 2013
12:18 am
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Bored,
I'm right there with you. One foot out the door but not ready to make my exit ;)
Hugs,
C.

If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude.
January 15, 2013
1:02 am
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I am always doing shit that is wrong for myself and yet I do it anyways. It's just the way I have decided to live my life. I agree with Changed in that people come on this forum and see whatever it is they want to see. All I know is that its a dynamic place and that I appreciate all opinions that are on here because even the ones that I don't often agree with..make me THINK and I really love that.

If an A has become pointless to you and are no longer making you happy in your life, then I guess find something else that finds you happiness. Simple really.. :D

January 15, 2013
1:52 am
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Yikes this forum is run by someone who doesn't approve of affairs ? Now that is scary :?

“....And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music....”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
January 15, 2013
1:55 am
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I still remember why I came here. My MM and I were 4 months in, and I had been basically cast aside by another board because they couldn't believe I'd be with a man who'd take me to his marital bed. I was a bad, bad OW for it. And me? I'd never been involved with a MM before, hadn't been involved with a older man before, and was so rose-eyed and bristling with "Holy crap, why are they angry at me?" that the rejection hurt bad.

And then there was this forum. SO many viewpoints. Some still here, some now gone. I have received so much wonderful insight on every level and every position that I no longer feel alone. That's pretty powerful, because if I can't talk to someone about what goes on in my R with my MM, I'd be a basketcase. I can come here, post a problem or a hooray and get someone who gives me something to think about any time of day. It's a lifesaver. Even the disagreements are a lifesaver, because then I can pull back and take stock of what is happening in my world without the blinders on.

I think even the most rabid of anti-A posters wind up doing a huge service. A visual voice-of-the-beehive, if you will. The very voice we all try to keep muffled at the back of our minds. I don't know what I'd do without some of the BSes that have lived both sides of the coin – their experiences are invaluable to learn from.

Nothing's going to make me leave my R with MM unless it's a decision made by MM or myself. No amount of mudslinging, shaming, weaseling, you name it. MM and I got together under our own willpower and that'll be the only thing that ever stops our ride. Let people try to talk you out of things and just take it for the grain of salt it is – just a piece of knowledge and you can use it or save it for later. :)

Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles - A fine film, yet long.
January 15, 2013
4:22 am
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I was so low last year at my M that I think it was more then low – it was underground. Friends will only support you up to some level, then you just don't want to put constant strain on them but you can't be alone so I looked on the net and ended up in TAM. I did get a bit of advice and support but as the collapse of my marriage was progressing people would become more tough on you – they all so pro M even if it's killing your soul.

Then I started my A and obviously got banned from TAM immediately. Finding this forum was like a lifeline. Not only my M ended but A started, I was in complete pieces – I couldn't put all those feelings in the right places. there was too many of them and too different. Saying goodbye to your H after 20 years and saying hello to new relationship at the same time was like a perfect storm.

The first few responses to my posts here made me feel like falling into grandma's arms – warm and safe.
What you guys created here is just one amazing place. So I have to agree with Changed – everyone see it different based on what we feel. I felt support and family.

Even reading BSs posts here I do not feel condemned or shamed. Maybe because I just don't have this feelings in me. My A gave me my life back and I just do not accept any negativity when it comes to this.

People may write, I don't even notice it as the R I have with my MM is like a rainbow in my eyes.
I do not have quilt and never will.
I think those posts can make you feel this way Bored only if you question your action in your own head.
It probably comes from the fact that you don't want to quit your M but you are uncomfortable with it.
Maybe that's a difference why we see it different – because I did take the step and did close that chapter of my life.

One thing I will agree with bored – this is an A support forum so don't bash the A here. If you condemning this type of R, why post here? Find your own forum.

You don't go to AA meeting and abuse those people, therapist doesn't scream at his patients or their choices.

Sorry if it came out as a rant, I'm really emotional today Embarassed

I always was myself but I never knew what a beautiful person I was till I met you.
January 15, 2013
2:20 pm
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"pandorabox" wrote: One thing I will agree with bored – this is an A support forum so don't bash the A here. If you condemning this type of R, why post here? Find your own forum.

Is this an A support forum though? I don't get why the owner of the board would have a support board if they are anti-A. :?:

January 15, 2013
2:40 pm
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"amelia" wrote: One thing I will agree with bored – this is an A support forum so don't bash the A here. If you condemning this type of R, why post here? Find your own forum.

Is this an A support forum though? I don't get why the owner of the board would have a support board if they are anti-A. :?:

Because its not an A support forum. Doc Cool has stated that numerous times. The purpose of the board is to discuss the impacts of an A – from all perspectives. The regular board posters are almost all in, looking to be in, or fairly recently out of an affair. So we have turned it into a support forum. But Doc Cool is always quick to remind people that that is not why he set this board up. Personally, I think part of the reason he so continually harps on this, and why the post deletion/modification is practically non existent, is because he isn't happy about the fact that it has largely turned into a support forum.

January 15, 2013
2:59 pm
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And then there is the point of view that says if you have to look long and hard to find support for what you are doing, then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it?

I often feel on the outside because I don't fit the traditional affair model. My affair is coming up on eight years. Most last two, max. A great number of my friends and some of my family, including my spouse are aware that I am engaged in an affair. A great number of my friends have met my AP. I only hide from my children and people who have no right to know. I am constantly reminded that my AP is not in a marriage like mine and would have to choose between me and his W if he were busted by his W. He cannot be open, except in my world. His having to live a "double life" causes him stress. My not having to live that way means he sometimes has to remind me of the dangers inherent in what he is doing.

I post here to show it can be different when people are brave enough to be open about their activities, but I know that, just like the BSs who post here and the reformed former WSs, my posts will sometimes frustrate readers/posters. I also will constantly remind singles dating marrieds that they are in unbalanced relationships that can only be balanced by dating others.

I come from a place of experience and knowledge, just like most who post here do. I have been the single who dated a married. I have been the BS in two marriages. I have also been the WS in two marriages. We both did it the secretive way the first time. I did it openly (negotiated DADT) the second time. I prefer being open. I know my AP cannot be, and I accept that and do what I can to protect him and his marriage because his marriage is still important to him.

Sometimes, I wish we lived in the parts of Europe where "support" is not sought nor required. Affairs are seen as part of what happens in marriages and sex is not a "bad" word, but just sex.

Given that we live where we do and how we do, forums like this are almost required. They fill a need, just like the BS boards fill a need. It's a shame that people have to hide so much that they cannot get their support in person and instead need to get it electronically. I'd like to see that change, but don't expect it will any time soon.

January 15, 2013
3:00 pm
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"Easka" wrote: One thing I will agree with bored – this is an A support forum so don't bash the A here. If you condemning this type of R, why post here? Find your own forum.

Is this an A support forum though? I don't get why the owner of the board would have a support board if they are anti-A. :?:

Because its not an A support forum. Doc Cool has stated that numerous times. The purpose of the board is to discuss the impacts of an A – from all perspectives. The regular board posters are almost all in, looking to be in, or fairly recently out of an affair. So we have turned it into a support forum. But Doc Cool is always quick to remind people that that is not why he set this board up. Personally, I think part of the reason he so continually harps on this, and why the post deletion/modification is practically non existent, is because he isn't happy about the fact that it has largely turned into a support forum.

I'm new so I didn't know that. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

January 15, 2013
5:41 pm
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I have the same thoughts recently. You are not alone. I have been in an A for a year. It adds a little bit something in my life, not much since it is a long distance

January 15, 2013
5:53 pm
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I have the same thoughts recently. You are not alone. Since I had an A, I have been reading a lot in the forums. It is a new thing to me. I did need to learn everything about it. The more I read, the more I feel confused! What I need is a loving relationship, A is just so limited! There is no way to move forward, there is not future. MM is so careful to do not make me fall. I know his attention is good. But, what is the point?? Many times I asked myself, I didn't know the answer.

January 15, 2013
5:59 pm
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I'm sure I'll get some flaming messages from the BSs who are posting here, and reading now.

I don't plan to flame anyone, but I will be honest in my response.

I found this site because I was ~trying~ to understand what people who entered into affairs felt. I still read for that reason. I am here as a WS, and I still don't understand my OWN motivation, why I feel the need to continue instead of point-blank asking for a D.

I'm a "BS" who heard about this site as it was mentioned a BS support forum. I had to come see for myself if it was really as described. I've been casually reading here for a while now. I registered just so I could reply to these questions.

Believe me, a few years back, as a 'happily married and secure' W, I would have been aghast at the thought of what I'm actually doing today. It isn't me. (Or so I thought).

Just as you would have been aghast at what you're doing today, Us BS's are aghast at what our WS's are doing (or did) now. I think some of us read here because we can't understand how a person can go from being "aghast" at an activity to acceptance, support, and what almost seems to be cheerleading of that same activity.

What I don't understand, is, since most of us here have been in an A, are IN an A, or just getting out of an A, what is the point of hammering home how WRONG it is for us to do it??
What is the point to drive deeper into our feelings of shame, or worthlessness, or regret?

Back when you would have been aghast at this kind of activity, would you not have felt any desire to say "hey, that's not right"?

Does it come down to the human need to 'convert'? Does it come down to the human need to shame? or blame? Or find a scapegoat??
Isn't it obvious to pretty much anyone with a brain that we do all these things to ourselves, anyway??
Even those of us who find 'temporary' happiness, who even (like CA) manage to turn it around into a hopefully legitimate relationship, or those who really just have an alternative life? Why all the vitriol??

In nearly every case, affairs cause hurt. I'm not going to go into my own story, but my wife has hurt me deeply. It simply seems absurd to me that there is a forum where people seem to openly support what will almost always turn out to be hurting of others (and themselves). I personally, am not here to bash, shame, or "fix" anyone, but I can certainly see why an outspoken BS would be inclined to respond to some of these posts. Myself, I quietly read these pages and shake my head in amazement at various posts where I clearly see hypocrisy and disconnect from reality. I don't feel a need to directly respond because I understand that it will only cause anger, but I can see why others would feel the need to say something.

Yes, I'm asking.

My answer? Here's how I see this forum . . . Many times when driving down a snow packed, icy highway, you get that "one guy", that jerk that seems to think following the rules is not necessary for him. He's impatient. He can't stand to move along in line with "the pack". He starts passing, weaving, bobbing in out of traffic. He gets more and more aggressive. He thinks he's entitled to have everyone get out of his way so he can get to his destination three minutes quicker. He thinks he's got it under control and he's going to get away with it. He thinks he's king of the road. Meanwhile, the rest of us know what's coming. He is going to at least hurt himself and likely destroy his car. Sadly, he's probably going to take a few others out with him when he goes.

I see most of these affair stories as written by "that guy". I (and I think many others) see that the crash is coming. It may not be during this particular storm, but it's coming. I don't want to see the innocent bystanders be hurt, but yet I'm compelled to watch, and wait for it to happen. When it does finally happen, I quietly sit here and again shake my head while "that guy" cries boo-hoo about how unfair it all was, how he didn't deserve what happened, and how it wasn't his fault. I don't know why that is so compelling. Why do we hate the "bad guy" in the movie and then cheer at the end when he is finally served his justice? Maybe it's just something in our human nature, but we can't help to watch.

That is how I see it. I know that my opinion doesn't matter to anyone here. I know that I can't say anything that will make a difference, so I stay quiet. But being on "the other side" I can see why others feel a need to say something to what they perceive as "that guy".

January 15, 2013
6:02 pm

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"noteasy" wrote: I have the same thoughts recently. You are not alone. Since I had an A, I have been reading a lot in the forums. It is a new thing to me. I did need to learn everything about it. The more I read, the more I feel confused! What I need is a loving relationship, A is just so limited! There is no way to move forward, there is not future. MM is so careful to do not make me fall. I know his attention is good. But, what is the point?? Many times I asked myself, I didn't know the answer.

:)

Let me know when you find it – the answer.

For me – the point of the affair was to show me what was possible.

This is my analogy. I felt like an underprivileged kid, and my big brother sponsor took me to the fancy country club for lunch. I was able to see all the things the rich people had and how they lived. Lunch would end and the limo would drop me off back in the slums – where I lived. I'd spend all my time trying to figure out when I could have lunch again because I so enjoyed that lifestyle – even if just for a moment.

That was what my affair felt like – a few always fleeting moments where I was enabled to experience love and intimacy.

Eventually I quit spending all of my time planning my next lunch and instead started figuring out what I needed to do to get ahead in life – so I could live this way – not just visit.

"Most people would rather be certain they're miserable, than risk being happy." -Robert Anthony “It does not take much strength to do things, but it requires a great deal of strength to decide what to do.” ― Elbert Hubbard "The path of least resistance is the path of the loser." - HG Wells
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